Pyro

Ok.

So, what are your opinions on the manner?

I am personally quite happy with it all. Some people may not want to see proof of atrocities and wrong doing, but I feel as if it will better the world sooner or later.

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TheHunter360

Right now because of wikileaks, the Arab World is the closet its ever been to war with Iran since the Iran-Iraq War. This is not a good thing. What wikileaks has done is facilitate not only an Middle Eastern Arms race, but it has also planted a seed of mistrust within countries due to these comments.

Since the US government keeps tabs on EVERYONE through agents and diplomats, a lot of comments in this document are personal observations and speculations and NOT fact. The argument that it exposes the crimes the US government has committed is ludicrous, the US is not the only nation that participates in intelligence gathering. Almost every nation that can afford to fund an intelligence organization spies on not only its enemies, but also its allies.

Thankfully what has been exposed so far has been more embarrassing than damaging. Unfortunately wikileaks could come out tomorrow with something like Indian plans on an invasion of Pakistan.

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Pyro

To some extent, I can sort of agree that this can pose a threat to already more volatile nations, however I think it is a necessary evil. The world we live in today is great compared to what people have lived in historically, but it is still not that great of a place to live.

Free nations need to have events like this to keep the government honest and the people free. We've gradually been giving our government more power, and it is now being proven that they have abused their power. No longer is it just speculation. We have documents documenting the bad things our government has done. It is the duty of the people to hold their government accountable, but in order to do so you have to bring the issue forward to the people. Thanks to brave journalists and leakers, the world might just become that much better of a place to live.

For oppressive nations, this can hopefully go to show people that the people can incite change. Giving into an oppressive regime is not something the people necessarily have to do. They can push to be free themselves and they can push to better their own lives. And, regardless of what governments try to do, if the people push strong enough for something then it will change. Even though the US government wants to shut down WikiLeaks, they most likely will not. People want to hold the US accountable, and the US isn't going to stop them.

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TheHunter360

IMO taking away certain liberties like allowing classified documents to be released is a necessary evil to keep the status quo in the diplomatic world granted changes need to occur in this country, but I really don't see how releasing these documents will improve my current quality of life.

Second, there is nothing, I repeat, nothing from that will change the actions of the US government in the future other than tightening internal security. Back in the 70s when the Pentagon Papers were released the US got a lot of criticism from the international community and the anti-war movement because it was basically revealed to the public the US had been planning the Vietnam War since the 40s. All the US did was issue an apology attempt to censor the document, like they're doing now, and these documents were more damaging to the US' image than the wikileaks diplomatic cables.

Now I'm going to ask you a few questions. In your opinion what has these documents revealed that shows the US has done bad things? I hardly count intelligence gathering a bad thing as I stated above in a previous contention, every developed country does it. Secondly how will my life improve from the this leak?

Lastly this leak will do nothing to change the status quo in oppressive regimes. The reason why this leak has affected the US so much is because we have an above average reputation. The US is suppose to be a world leader and its embarrassing to have US diplomatic gossip revealed. Not only is it counterproductive, but its created more work for the government than necessary. Its like being arrested for prank calling 9-11, the US doesn't have the time to give apologies to all of these countries, especially when bigger issues like peace deals, trade agreements, and military cooperation is being discussed.

Wikileaks has targeted real oppressive regimes in China and Iran before and their actions yielded little results towards improving human rights or motivating the population to begin a popular uprising. Wikileaks isn't the world police and it shouldn't be the world police.

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Pyro

AFP: Obama should resign if approved UN spying: WikiLeaks founder
WikiLeaks cables: Shell's grip on Nigerian state revealed | Business | The Guardian
WikiLeaks cables: CIA drew up UN spying wishlist for diplomats | World news | The Guardian
WikiLeaks cables: US 'lobbied Russia on behalf of Visa and MasterCard' | World news | The Guardian
(I haven't found a source for this picture)

(I haven't found the cables that support these claims)


These are not from a cable, but as a result of releasing the cables. The government is censoring organisations that are protected by free speech.
U.S. Military in Iraq Tries to Intimidate Soldiers Into Not Reading Wikileaks
Library of Congress Is Latest Government Institution to Block Wikileaks
Bradley Manning Support Network Archive Supporter detained (His family has also been denied to right to see him)
And this one has a nice summary of daily leaks
WikiLeaks embassy cables: the key points at a glance | World news | guardian.co.uk

Note: they have only leaked a little over 1000 cables of over 250,000 cables. A lot of the cables are fairly neutral or portray the US decently, too.

Also,
WikiLeaks' Assange to fight any extradition: lawyer | Reuters
We're trying to find ways to charge him with crimes when he hasn't done anything illegal in terms of leaking the US cables. He's not an american citizen and he had no responsibility to keep the documents confidential. Freedom of the press protects his right to publish these documents, just like journalists were allowed to publish the Pentagon Papers. More level headed people are demanding we charge him for crimes he hasn't committed, and more extreme people are advocating for drastic measures such as his assassination. That's just wrong that leading figures are encouraging the murder of another person.

and lol at this
U.S. State Department Hilariously Announces ‘World Press Freedom Day’

Hopefully your life will improve because ideally it will lead the American public and the world to demand more government accountability and transparency. Hopefully people will push for things like this to not happen. Obama ran on the fact that he was going to be more open about government, but he did not deliver on that promise. Liberty is achieved and maintained by keeping government open. When you allow governments to operate in secret then you allow for atrocities and oppression. Sure, we in the US are not nearly oppressed as, say, the Chinese, but that doesn't make it right. A lot of people are fairly indifferent to it because they feel as if change can't happen, and that is sad. We can change things, and now we have proof of our government's corruption. Now is the time to reform. People should continue to fight for their liberties and a better way of life.

Btw, I ought to stop writing up these replies after midnight. I'm sure parts of this are jumbled and hard to read, but I am too tired to see it.

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Colts23

Wikileaks can go die..after what they posted about the US Military.

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"You told me yes / You held me high
And I believed when you told that lie
I played that soldier / You played king
And struck me down when I kissed that ring
You lost that right / to hold that crown
I built you up but you let me down
so when you fall / I'll take my turn
and fan the flames as your blazes burn"
- Linkin Park "Burn It Down" (Mike Rap Part)

Pyro

They exposed war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan and a video of an Apache killing innocent people, including two news personnel.

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pantstofry

WikiLeaks is fucking retarded, now we've got this bullshit to deal with, fuck that guy already.

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to apologize for my lime green comic sans, here is some sexiiii

TheHunter360

Most Americans don't care about the covert activities of our government. There will be no uprising against the US government. Assange however is defiantly going to jail for espionage against the US, which is a real crime regardless if he is a citizen or not he attacked America.

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Pyro

The fact that most Americans don't care is a problem. We pretend to be a good, moral, Christian nation, and yet we do terrible things too. Before it was all just suspicion, but now we have proof. I don't believe there will be an uprising, but we can hope for real change (not Obama's bullshit). Assange turned himself in to British police. That is hardly defiant. They denied him bail sort of just as a fuck you to him. That's hardly fair. And, he has not committed a crime. The US government wants to say he has, but they haven't charged him with a crime. Historically, the press is protected under the right to free speech whatever they are given. This isn't necessarily an attack on the US, he's just publishing the truth (one that the US hasn't even denied). If someone figures out that Obama killed a man and publishes that, is that an attack on the US or is it something that should get out there? When your leaders are corrupt and committing acts we condemn, is it right to support them? It's pretty sad that so many people are siding with the US government to bury the truth.

I am pretty disappointed in America over all this, and I am not some deranged liberal either. For the most part, I believe in a more Republican platform, and with that comes a weaker government. The government shouldn't have the power to commit crimes and then persecute the people who expose them.

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TheHunter360

Sorry I meant definitely not defiantly. Anyways to sum things up ignorance is bliss, America is not perfect, these documents are causing more harm than good, and the US government is just doing what it sees as part of its best interest.

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Pyro

The thing is, America is imperfect in large part due to being willfully ignorant. We are far from perfect, and as humans will likely never reach perfection, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make progress. People are looking at these documents and saying "hey, this stuff is rpetty bad, let's continue to do this and erode people's freedom" when they could be saying "hey, this is bad and we can fix it." These documents can do good, and they should be doing good.

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TheHunter360

Ok what should we do? Should we release all of these documents and put the Obama and Bush Administrations on trial for the number of atrocities they've committed in the past decade? Should we disband the CIA? Should we declassify every bit of intelligence we have?

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Carlos

I wish I had a member like you in a thread at xenforo. I had an argument with another member about WikiLeaks and he claims that WikiLeaks is actually trying to "help" the U.S. military. And fucking hell, he even DEFENDS WikiLeaks.

A few former/current military soldiers were offended by this person...So, basically, this entire situation offends a lot of the military personnels.

So, I thank your post, and I agree with you: Let WikiLeaks die. Seriously, fuck 'em.

They think its okay to release sensitive information. Newsflash: ITS NOT!
No. No. NO. No. No. Hell No. NO!

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Pyro

Should we put the Bush and Obama administrations on trial? Hmm, probably not. Admittingly nothing would probably get done going down this path. What we could push for is 1) acknowledgement that they did something wrong and 2) getting them not to do it again. What we shouldn't do is now that we have this information we shouldn't deny it and blame the people who released it as if they were the ones committing the crimes the US government is responsible for.

Should we disband the CIA? No. Intelligence is important, but what we shouldn't do is commit atrocities to get the intelligence. We shouldn't use the CIA to torture prisoners at places like Guantanamo. We shouldn't have the CIA advocate for the assassination of individuals. We shouldn't have the CIA help lead rebellions. We should do our very best to acquire our intelligence in such a way as to not hurt people.

Should we declassify every bit of intelligence we have? The government should definitely be more open. The people have a right to know what is going on. Ideally, the government would have no secrets held from its people, but regrettably there will always be secrets. However, we as people need to push towards as few of secrets as possible. We should be able to know if the government is committing crimes. We can't expect other countries to act well if we aren't acting well too. I'd say we could allow the public to know what is going on, but perhaps keep out names of people that might come to harm (actually, WikiLeaks is doing this. They are leaving out the names of people in many cables as to protect their safety).

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Pyro

Still relevant:

transcript: http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical...rs04271961.htm

Another amazing speech:

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KahnSoulKooLAiD

I am an American... I say I am Christian and tolerant unless your gay or black or different than me. I don't give a shit about anything except college football and boobs. I eat my f*ckin cheeseburgers, I am overweight, and I still believe I have a special perpous yet to revealed and my shit don't stink. Kill Obama Kill Osama Killed Hussein I have nothing else to add because American idol is on.

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abc

All true, however should any country stand around being moral whilst every other country gains a tactical advantage by being immoral?

On the world scale that we are talking about I'd argue that being immoral gives a sometimes game-winning advantage.


As the biggest economic, social and military powerhouse in the world I'd also suggest that the only fights the west loses are those in which the "enemy" conducts itself immoraly. Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia all did disproportionally well against US forces due to fighting with a non existant rule book. It's not just war either, if you are better than the opposition within the rules then they can only win by looking outside the rules.


Let's not forget how comparatively moral the western world is, and also how no-one is perfect, when I say that the western world does a comparatively commendable job to conduct itself in a moral way.

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"I don't like new Linkin Park, I don't like old Linkin Park... I JUST LIKE LINKIN PARK"

COD owner - COD expansion pack owner - COD2 owner - COD2: BRO player - COD3 owner - COD4 owner - COD:WaW owner - COD: MW2 owner - COD: BO owner

This is getting repetitive.

Pyro

True, but at the same time it doesn't make it right. A lot of what we do isn't necessary. It isn't a valid defense to justify our wrong doings by saying others do it too, or worse than we do.

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