Dante

Do you support Capital Punishment, or as it is more commonly known, the Death Penalty?

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I don't.

I hold this belief primarily because I don't believe that being found guilty of a crime should result in a permanent loss of liberty or life. I don't think that an action could ever be so serious as to require the permanent and irreversible removal of a subject from society, it is for this reason that i'd condemn both capital punishment and a sentence of "life without parole".

There have been instances where murderers have reformed and been able to contribute positively towards society following a jail term and I don't think that rehabilitation should cease to be an option for those who, it could be argued, are most in need of it.

Furthermore there is the matter of victims of the death penalty being pardoned after they have been killed, the case that come to my mind is that of Derek Bentley, a man hanged in the UK, though his mental age was only 11. His conviction was posthumously quashed in 1993.

The typical arguments in favour of the death penalty are that it is both a solution to reoffending and a general deterrent. While the former claim obviously cannot be disputed it costs between $2.5-5 million per execution [source], money which could be better spent and rehabilitation facilities and well as measures which deter others from committing crimes in the wider community.

The argument based on deterrent is also weak, 94% of criminologists agreed that there was little emperical evidence to support the deterrent effect of the death penalty [source]. Whilst surveys asking police chiefs in the US (who are typically more likely to favour capital punishment than the general population) to list ways of deterrence in order of effectiveness had the majority rank the death penalty last in the list, with only 1% agreeing that it is the most effective way of deterrence.

This brings me to the conclusion that as a form of deterrence the death penalty is ineffectual and expensive.


I could go on but I don't want to end up writing an essay and i'd better get on with some homework >.<

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OzballO

Agreed, my stance mostly comes from a moral/religious standpoint but your reasons are excellent as well. Also for many murderers it would be worse to be in prison than to die.

Flyt

I support it, but it needs to be changed to address the issues that have already been brought up. Things like cost, deterrence factor, and possibility of error, are problems.

I'll expand more later but some crimes are so heinous that the perpetrator has shown through their actions they have obviously forsaken their right to life by their total and utter disregard for others lives.

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Dante

See this is an issue which I think is widespread in most justice systems around the world. I think they're all far too victim-centric. After the crime has been committed personally I don't think the victim should really play much of a role. I think that sentencing shouldn't be about avenging the victim, or giving the family eye-for-eye justice. I think it should be about protecting society whilst also ensuring a reasonable standard of living for the convicted, which includes giving them a shot at rehabilitation.

Like I said in my intro, personally I don't think that any action makes you deserving of "permanent justice".

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Flyt

That is what I was saying, its not for the victims or vengeance. The person has shown through their actions that there is no possibility of their ever being a part of society and they should not be a drain on society for the next however many years they live while incarcerated. I also have no problem with euthanasia or assisted suicide (for any reason the person that wants to die my have) but those are discussions for another thread.

Take a look at a list of serial killers and see if you could honestly believe they could be a functioning part of society. Try here for a quick start.

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Nietzsche's Son

Yes, although done on a case-by-case basis, with the most extreme deserving Capital Punishment.

FearTheTerror

I live in a country where there is no capital punishment, the UK. Personally, I think we are taking criminals too lightly and im sure that if the law made it so they could take their life then im sure most of the people would at least think twice about their actions.

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jason221

How can an execution be so expensive? Is this taking into account court costs, jail housing costs, etc., or the actual procedure alone? I don't see how letting someone hang from a rope can cost millions of dollars.

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Dante

Ok, i'll concede that serial killers are unlikely to become a "functioning part of society" but does this really warrant disposing of them? Would you advocate the execution of an incurably insane murderer on the basis that reformation/cure is impossible?

When I boil it down I suppose my general thought is, if someone is at your mercy killing them is the weakest action you can take.

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FearTheTerror

I agree with jason221, if we had capital punishment, there wouldn't be any need to build more prisons, saving us money especially in this economic crisis.

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Dante

That would put your certainty at odds with criminologists, who are paid to do research on this. It is generally accepted that capital punishment is a poor form of deterrent.

Defendants facing the death penalty require the top defence lawyers, so that the innocent aren't mistakenly convicted (this costs money), also capital trials are often given higher security than ordinary cases (this costs money) once convicted they must be held in custody to allow for appeals (this costs money), all the while they have lawyers working on their appeals (this costs money). It all adds up.

Also, one of the main reasons that capital punish costs so much is that many people are sentenced to deaths but aren't actually executed for whatever reason. All the above money is spent on them then they aren't killed which drives up the average cost per execution.

Just a quick fact: The 44 executions carried out in Florida from 1976 to 2000, cost about $24 million per execution. Building a prison costs around $100,000 per cell. A quick bit of maths gives the figure that approximately 10,000 prisoners could be housed for the cost of those 44 prisoners.

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blub212212

the harshest punishment should be inprisonment for life. HOWEVER.
i think the criminal should have the choice of death vs. imprisonment. that way, its essentailly the same thing to most of the judges but then the criminal gets to have a little leeway.

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Voodoo

You've raised some good points Dante, I was always opposed to capital punishment for the reason of if you do want to punish someone, letting them rot in a cell with a life without parole sentence will be far more punishing than the death sentence. Which is hardly punishing. ( I don't believe in an afterlife, or rather, a hell). I am more inclined now however, to oppose it becaues of the reasons you have listed.

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FearTheTerror

but isnt it the defendent that pays for his lawyer? not the government? correct me if im wrong plz.

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Dante

When it comes to cases which the defendant will obviously not be able to pay for the standard of defence he needs I believe the State is required to pay under "the right to a fair trial", Article 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998 (UK) and I think the 11th Amendment of the US Constitution contains a requirement to suitable representation but i'm no expert on Constitutional Law, being from the UK and all.

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TheHunter360

This is one of the reasons why I hate my governor, Rick Perry The dude is so pro-death he executed three inmates despite the supreme court warning him not to do. He even foiled an investigation into the execution of a man who allegedly killed his three children despite lacking solid evidence implicating him to the deaths because it would hurt his chance for reelection.

Cameron Todd Willingham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The death penalty is inhuman and is costing us thousands. Hundreds of inmates will never go through the entire appeal process. No life no liberty its completely unconstitutional.

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Voodoo

I believe Dante is correct, as if this was the case, the debt would be past on to the defendants family, which is completely fucked because why should they be required to pay for legal fees. That would be my logic to why the state pays. Then again during the early 1980s in China the families were made to pay for the cost of the bullet in an execution.

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WeAre138

Man, people need to stop complaining about whether or not something is constitutional or not. You know, it's not constitutional, but neither is more than half of what the government does these days.

I do not support the death penalty. Mistakes have been made in the past.

Flyt

Ok, I’ll address the first of the points raised as to why there should not be capital punishment. It may touch on others but mainly just one point

Lack of deterrent effect:
I agree that capital punishment as it is now is not a deterrent. My opinion is that there is no deterrent effect because capital punishment is a hush hush quiet little thing that we do in a dark corner of state prisons. The person being executed has already been removed from society and behind bars they for so long they have basically been forgotten and in essence already “dead” to the world.
For the most part, everyone except the families of the victims and criminal have already forgotten their crime. This makes them just a name or a number and not a “real” person to most of the public. To address this I believe executions should be moved out to the “front steps of the courthouse” and done in full view of public. Executing someone is the harshest punishment that society can meet out for the harshest of crimes; it shouldn’t be a dark little secret.
Also, executions shouldn’t be “sterile”. Lethal injection used, in the US now, makes executing someone a medical procedure. Killing someone shouldn’t be a medical procedure; someone is being killed for their crimes. It shouldn’t be intentionally overly cruel but painless and clean is not a prerequisite. Hanging, firing squad, and electrocution are quick and make a clear statement that society will not tolerate people killing other people (except in self defense).
Executing someone in one of those methods in full view of the public would serve as a deterrent. Here in my hometown there was a murder of a police informant (here are the details) where, I believe, it would have been avoided if the perpetrators knew they would be executed and had seen it done to others before them. As it stands these two guys are going to disappear from society for the rest of their natural lives and be forgotten by the next generation of thugs who come along. However, if they were hung out in the public their “story” would scare others from doing the same in the future.

I’m going to stop here for now but to set up my next post about execution as punishment I’ll leave you with this………Crimes like this deserve execution for the perpetrator. I don’t care if there is a chance at “rehabilitation” for the little fuckwad or not, he confessed his crime and deserves to die for it.


tl;dr: There is not deterrent effect to capital punishment because we go about executing people the wrong way.

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Nibbles

Well put, Flyt.
I disagree with your stance on capital punishment but you make a good point about deterrence.

The deterrence factor depends on the laws and legal system and how these things affect society. In Singapore for example, not only capital and corporal punishment (caning) exist for heavy to “moderate” crimes, but things such as jaywalking, the sale of chewing gum, spitting, leaving public toilets unflushed, etc are all illegal and enforced. Humiliation of offenders of even these minor crimes such as littering is sometimes used as a deterrent.

One major deterrent I think (and one I find quite scary TBH) is that, for the most part under Singapore law, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. There are a number of serious cases where this has occurred which I can find and link if anyone wants a read.

All in all, this makes for a very orderly, safe, clean and well behaved society, especially when you add in other factors such as compulsory military service, no dole or unemployment benefit, etc. They are pretty strict across the board and in general, do not fuck around.

And they also have one of the lowest intentional homicide rates in the world.

Basically, if a country / society is going to employ such harsh penalties for major crimes and have them be effective as a deterrent, it has to go all the way and must be equally as hard across the board.

Is it right? Not in my view. I’m not for capital punishment, but just wanted to share my thoughts on the deterrence topic, as it is quite a major point in the advocacy for capital punishment.

iMac Girl

In my country we abolished Capital Punishment many years ago for many of the reasons listed here. The one thing that I disagree with is that the arguments are all about the perpetrator and not the victim. The victims didn't get a fair trial, they didn't get the chance to appeal, their lives were taken from them. I agree that the death penalty is not a deterrent, but who cares, it's about punishment. Why waste money trying to rehabilitate and give them a second chance, their victims didn't get a second chance. A 38 cal piece of lead inserted directly into the brain from extreme close range, is fairly quick and humane if you ask me, cheap too.

Any murderer should forfeit their own life - After all it's called a penalty.

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Flyt

For the most part the US has moved beyond public humiliation being any type of a deterrent......people are just too apathetic. Every weekend you can see people in neon orange vests picking up garbage on the sides of the road. We call it "community service" like its a good thing. They use it for lots of minor to what I consider moderate crimes. Things like failure to pay child support, dunk and disorderly conduct, all the way to first offense drunk driving (just depends on the judge and how good of a lawyer you have).


Dante: I read through that Derrick Bentley case you pointed out, you're right. In his case capital punishment was not appropriate. He didn't pull the trigger, or supply the weapon. It sounds like it was a case of a mentally retarded person caught up with the wrong people.
Its similar to the case I mentioned from my hometown. There were two of them, one trigger man the other was there but by all accounts not the leader of the two (a classic case of following a person with strong personality). They were both facing the possibility of death by lethal injection. The non-shooter was tried first and found guilty of 2nd degree murder as an accessory to murder.....sentenced to life w/o parole. Within a short time of the sentence and the announcement that the prosecute would push for the death penalty for the shooter when his case came to trial, the shooter plead guilty to 2nd degree murder and a sentence of life w/o parole. IMO, the first should not have faced the death penalty and the second should have been "put down" like a rabid animal, he has a long history of preying on people that live w/in the "constraints of civilized society". Not once did (or has) the shooter ever show remorse, he even laughed at his sentencing and said something along the lines of "it sucks but at least I wont be executed".

There are going to be extremes on both sides that we can point to where things did not go like they should have.

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Alphabuster187

I'm for the death penalty, scum bags that go and commit horrendous crimes do not need a second chance. If you decided to go ahead and ruin a lot of people's lives, yours does not need special consideration.

2 million plus to kill someone? Highly doubt that number, too high to be reasonable, besides, the cost of keeping someone in jail for the rest of their lives can be higher than that.

I kill someone, behave in jail, participate in rehabilitation, then go free??? The murder rate would go up if everyone knew they can get a pass the first time around. And why stop at one, why not give them more chances?

There should be a set list of crimes that would automatically qualify you for the death penalty, period. I bet more would think about it more than twice about commiting a certain crime than if found guilty of, unequivocally.

Survivors of victims should be allowed to pull the trigger or pull that lever if they choose to.

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Flyt

The 2 million number doesn't surprise me. I actually believe its higher than that (based on how they manipulate the numbers), they roll all kinda of costs into the cost that would be incurred whether it was a death penalty case or not...... cost of the trial, cost of incarceration for the 10-20-30 years they are death row, cost of the numerous automatic appeals that are in place (whether the condemned wants the appeals or not).

iMac - I agree its punishment, but not that its vengeance for the victims. I really dont like it when I hear about the parade of sobbing family members that talk about the victim during the sentencing phase of the trial. As Dante said, the victims story is over unfortunately, but it shouldn't matter whether the victim was a bright promising young person or a person with no family and few or no friends living the last of their days peacefully in a nursing home.

The crime was murder....the punishment is death.

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Flyt

After reading back over my previous posts I realize I sound like a cold hearted bastard. I'm not one honest, I just get riled up sometimes...sorry all.



Double post I know but felt it was important to separate this from the other posts

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