abc

HAS TO SATISFY ALL REAL-LIFE NEEDS example:

Any super car - too expensive
Mazda MX5 - only got 2 seats, no boot so no good for shopping
Focus ST - almost, but simply too embaressingly chavy
Mondeo ST/Mazda 6 MPS/Octavia VRS etc - Fabulous in every single respect but boring
Golf GTI Mark 5? - bit too "sensible?" Hmm, maybe sensible is good.
BMW M3/Merc S class AMG/Audi RS4 - all perfect except the price. I do not call 50k "mainstream" price.

Because this is a debate "BECAUSE I LIKE IT" DOES NOT COUNT. Consider all factors, price, practicality, looks, performance, brand etc




Basic Evo X, the RS - not embaressingly bonkers (subtle styling) yet fufils the "exciting and not boring" bit, practical for a family, mitsubishi isn't mainstream, yes they made your washing machine but WRC pedigree more than makes up for that, Impreza is only for young people. 25k is still a lot though...?

If 25k is too much, I'm thinking Clio sport 192. All of the above, but less practical and more like 12k ish.

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This is getting repetitive.

ishter

Something like a lexus is-200? Affordable, relatively sporty, sufficient space, half-decent exterior..

And yea, Golf GTI = upper-market mainstream.

Short post because I have a flight at 8 in morning, and its 2am already.

HBK

Vauxhall Astra VXR


Engine: 2.0-litre, 16v 4cyl turbocharged
Power: 240HP @ 5,600rpm
Torque: 320Nm @ 2,400-5,000rpm
0-60mph: 6.2 seconds
Top speed: 152mph
Price: £18,995
Immediately distinguished by its exclusive 18-inch wheels.
Massive 19-inch wheels are a £500 option.

It fills the "exciting sporty" box.
It is quite a gorgeous car.
Unmatched power for price range.
Good amount space of comfort., has a nice boot.
Practical like any other Hatchbaks/MPV's
Affordable price.

I do admit the downside thou, doesn't have the pedigree of a GTI(but sure pwns it in a race ^_^) or an EVO.

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pantstofry

I like the VW GTI... It's got the fun of a turbo with great fuel efficiency, neat price, good looks, good versatility of a hatch in 2 or 4 door trims.
I also like the Audi A4. I love Audi, and this is the cheapest one that is new (besides A3 which is a rebadged GTI). If you're looking a couple years old its nice (I'm looking at an 06 A4 for under 13k). 30k is a bit pricey, but its a nice-looking sedan that is fun to drive.

Another would be the Mazdaspeed3. Excellent power and fun-to-drive feeling with the manual tranny for around 20k, and again with the versatility of a hatch.

If you're looking for a reliable car, I can testify to the Nissan Sentra. I have an 04 with almost 80,000 miles on it, NOTHING has gone wrong with this car. The rear has been dented, the left front has been smashed, and then recently i was in a pretty bad accident where the front was completely destroyed. Nothing mechanically has gone wrong, however. I'm blanking out on some other ones, but I'll post later

EDIT: the audi I'm looking at (its an 04, not an 06)

Platy

Doesn't that have a problem with torque steering though? (Where the car pulls to the side when accelerating from standing because its front wheel drive)

Also its a Vauxhall so you're not going to stand out, which is a good thing. Unless you want to stand out though.

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HBK

Yep, that happens during full acceleration, I see where tugging the steering wheel can be annoying -_-;

But it's a thing you can get used I guess. And the VXR has power assisted steering, it's barely noticeable.

And yeah, I wouldn't want to stand out, thus decreasing the chances of getting my car stolen lol

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GhostHands

Interesting topic. It's hard to say what the best car out there is because there are great cars for all price points. abc, you mentioned the M3 doesn't count because the price is above average. I think it depends on where you live. Here in Seattle, I see tons of E90's and even more E36's. My husband and I are considered lower middle class and we have a 2008 E90. If you are wise with your money it is easier than you think to own a $60,000 car. However, there are definitely downsides. While all maintenance is provided free of charge by the dealership, tires are not. Tires are extremely expensive for the M class AND they wear out in 20,000 or so miles. Between $1,600-2,000 USD.

As far as a mid range affordable car that meets the requirements of most individuals, a lot of the Nissan sedans would work. Most are V6, quite roomy and are pretty reliable. Maintenance is more affordable than the luxury sedans, and the cars are well appointed and have nice interiors.

For a 12K car, the Honda Fit would be acceptable for those that are looking for an affordable car, 4 doors, a hatch with decent cargo space and really good gas mileage. The Fit is an economical choice and Honda is typically builds reliable sturdy cars.

As far as a higher end, but still affordable sedan, I'd go with the 335xi. Roomy interior, fantastic engine and more low end than the M3, the 335i is a great family car, or good for going to the mountains. This particular model is all wheel drive which is awesome. They also offer the model as a wagon. And it is one sexy car. Personally I would go with the 135 coupe because it is more sporty and is smaller. I don't need a full size sedan for my tiny frame. Well appointed we talking $35,000-50,000 though so it's not a price point for everyone.

Hope this counts as a debate. I'm a BMW fan girl.

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oneinchwunda

This all really depends on your price point, as that is almost always the main factor to anyone that wants to buy a car nowadays.

I myself, would like to make a case for BMW aswell. Sure an M3 would be great fuckin awesome, but you're forgetting that the lower range 3-series are still great cars. My mum has a 320d as a company car from work and it is brilliant.

Practical, large boot (big enough for a set of clubs or two), plenty of space in the back, brilliant handling, efficient and best of all is the price. Expect to pay no more than £30,000 for the petrol (my mum only got a diesel because it was part of the lease) M-Sport version with sport suspension, alloy rims as standard, leather heated seats and some other extras thrown in.

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abc

Oh hello... not a bad shout. Not only does it do what you say but it's different to the "normal" A4/3 series/Passat etc. Also RWD fun...

Do they still make the IS200? is there a "new shape" by now?

It's like an exige. Amazing, but it doesn't make sense to a non-car fanatic. Just like you have to explain why the exige has ridiculous bodywork, a huge spoiler and is uncomfortable to get into, with a VXR you'd constantly be going "Yes yes I know it says vauxhall on the front and I know it also says astra and yes it's bright red but VXR means..."

Overwhelming majority of people aren't. Also I think there's gonna be some inconsistency because in the UK an M3 will set you back equivilant of $80,000. The UK has an average wage of around £15k, so a £50k car is completely out of the question even for very comfortable middle class families. Oh yeah, and families... apparantly a kid costs you over £100k between the age of 0 and 16...

To earn 100k in the UK you need to be the prime minster, a CEO or senior management of a multinational. Otherwise affording a 50k car along with life, tax and a mortgage just won't happen.

I think £30k is still a bit expensive new. I mean seriously, not only would you and partner have to both earn 30k (not exactly rare, but that's a hell of a lot more comfortable than most) but you'd have to be seriously enthusiastic.




Be greatful I specified new cars (to fix the price) allowing used prices would be a whole bundle of fun...

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This is getting repetitive.

oneinchwunda

Okay, fair enough, now I think about it.

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abc

I've tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it doesn't even matter because by definition nothing is perfect.

I was convinced hot hatches were the way to go because they are the ideal compromise. However the only car that I perceive as being remotely close to perfect in every intended way is the standard F430. There is at least one MAJOR thing wrong with every 20k hot hatch. Whether it's too track focused like the Megane sport or too bland like the Mazda 3 MPS/Golf GTI or too crappy brand like the Astra VXR. Even the best of the bunch, the Civic Type R, I wouldn't want because although it fufils everything it's just not as epic as the previous one.

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This is getting repetitive.

pantstofry

There's the IS 250 or 350.
The IS-F is sweet, but that's getting into the expensive range...

HBK

Lmao, I can see where this may ruin my "pick up" moments.

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Voodoo

I present to you the Ford Focus RS. Downside, is expensive at around £20,000

Less gawdy paint job for oneinchwunda

the ultimate family car

0-100 (60mph) in 4.6 seconds and a 5.0 Litre Twin Turbo V10

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oneinchwunda

Also, as abc said before, too chavvy and all the fluorescent paint choices seem a bit too "look at me I'm driving a racing car!" but I'm actually driving an overpriced Ford.

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Voodoo

less expensive option:


AU$26,000 couple this with an ECU tune from APR (AU$1400 - 800 pounds) and you can get
bringing it to the same power as a golf GTI for around half the price, drawbacks is it is a 2 door, space is a little limited in the back seats but it's hardly terrible, I can fit in the back very easily and I am 6"1 and 77 kilos so as long as your not morbidly obese space isn't an issue. (mum has one)

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If I had the cash, I would get this.

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abc

20k for an RS?!?! lulwut planet are you on?

The ST3 is like 21k, I thought the RS was far closer to £30k ?!?!?! Blue (over the RS green or ST orange) is a massive improvement though so nice one there. Although technically very good it still says "ford focus" on it but perhaps more importantly woman would want to know why it has a massive handle at the top of the boot and why it's so hard and uncomfortable over bumps.

Someone else: "what do you drive"
you: "ford focus..."
someone else: "oh. bye"
you: "bu bu but I haven't finished my sentance, it's an RS!!!"

Same applies to most hot hatches apart from renaults, cause girls think they look fun & cute and to be fair renault doesn't sound as lack luster as vauxhall, ford, etc


If you've seen clarkson trying to drive that W12 (from the VW Nando concept car & later the Phaeton) then you'll understand why more than 300 BHP in a golf is an awful waste of money (golf chassis doesn't have the wheelbase to cope with that amount of power, thus is twitchy thus extremely prone to snap oversteer. not oversteer. snap oversteer. i.e. the lethal type of oversteer not the "look at me" type of oversteer)


All of which seems to lead back to the VW golf GTI mark 5. I'm not alone in thinking it's a bit boring though. Out of the renaultsport megane, type R, ST etc it's very very bland. Whilst subtlety is needed, as prooven by the Focus RS, likewise a 200 BHP hothatch with the pedigree of a GTI should look more like the R32 :/ The R32 is a stupid car. What about the Focus ST3 in "anything but ST orange". The ST styling is sporty but not over the top. "Ford Focus" is still very "meh" but more interesting than a golf. The top of the line ST "3" shows you have money and aren't a chav. The amount of chavs driving em and the fact that it says Focus on the back is still an issue for me though :/

What about... Mazda 3 MPS (aka mazdaspeed 3 in everywhere but the UK) I gather it's rubbish in real life for the simple reason that it's too uncomfortable. However it's a slightly interesting brand, is focus sized but doesn't say "focus/astra/skoda/etc" on the back. More power than everything but the Focus RS means it should be exciting. It doesn't look stupid. It actually looks a tad like the new impreza WRX STI. It's 20k odd. It's real strength is on the track, but that's not real life.


EDIT: Also just in case someone was thinking it, think very hard before mentioning a diesel. I was in a mates diesel Zetec S the other day which was amazing until you turn the engine on. It sounded... like a diesel... which just did not work in a hot hatch. Something else that didn't work was redlining at 4.5k RPM, not 6k RPM.

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This is getting repetitive.

Voodoo

1) this R32 is closer to 360BHP
2) When tested the R32 had a lap time of 36.5 on a test track. To put this into perspective a tuned Porche GT2 had lap times of 35.0. While still much slower, especially on such a short track, when compared to the AU$445,000 porche that is designed to be a road legal track car that is widely believed to have the best chassis known to man, I think it does a fair job. The R32 also has aroung 20k~ worth of suspension and tire modifications to address the problem you've indicated as well as iirc being AWD, but the W12 golf is FW.
3) none of this matters because it is 100% off topic.

edit

4) so long as your not in england looking like a chav doesn't matter

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abc

The W12 Golf was AWD. Watch any one of clarksons spins and you'll see all the characteristics for AWD/RWD spins and not a single FWD wheel-cocked lift-off-oversteer spin. Also, do you really think VW would be stupid enough to put a W12 (much be around the 600 BHP mark) in a FWD car?

The stock R32 is pointless because the extra weight of the 3.2 V6 over the 2.0 turbo almost negates the 40~ BHP power advantage. The extra weight also inhibits handling. Yes the rock solid suspension and added power do make it faster than a golf and it also looks more impressive to other men, but it's only slightly faster yet for a massive amount more.

I believe any tuned cars are also irrelavent. Sure some lend themselves to tuning easier than others, but with select parts/good knowledge you can make anything go quickly. Look at some of the most successful Super 2000 regulation WRC & WTC cars of recent years. The Citroen C4, Peugot 307 coupe, BMW 330i and Cheverolette Lacety have all been immensely successful yet bear no performance resemblence to their original cars. Anything can be race prepared, the oddest things I've seen IRL was a diesel VW caddy vans & 18L TDI trucks.

I like this debate. It's like talking about computers, but people understand you somewhat more...

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This is getting repetitive.

Voodoo

They were stupid enough to put the W12 in there in the first place
You mentioned tuning, here is my ex neighbours ute in a photo shoot for a magazine.
oh the images are around 2 mb each so don't click spoiler if you're impatient.

I am going to try get few pictures of my former next door neighbours Ford XR6 Ute, tis the fastest V6 ute in Victoria iirc, 380-400kw at the wheels iirc (obviously tuned) I can't find the pictures though. Basically it has had about 70k dumped into it with the help of a V8 Super Car engineer (think bathurst) wheels tires and suspension have been a lot of money lol



OT: I was going to suggest an Audi S3 but that is getting a little bit expensive
that would be my choice for AU$60k~~

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GhostHands

Not sure where you got this info or what model year, but an '09 has around 250 brake horsepower. Maybe if you chip it and modify a few things you could get her close, but it would be more trouble, and more money than it's worth. I notice you refer to "this" R32, so maybe I missed a post somewhere in here about a specific car. Anyway you look at it, abc is right, what is the point of putting that kind of power to the wheels in a car like the Golf?

For 10K more than the stock R32, you could get an Audi S4, although not fully loaded, and you get 340 BHP with no modifications. Much more class and better handling, good low end and all wheel drive. You also look cooler in an S4, mainly because anything after 2004 in a VW looks like a boring hatchback. I am not a fan of the route VW took regarding body styling. I'm a huge fan of Mk1-4 OG bodies, they look super dope slammed and have much better wheels than the current lineup.

I was thinking about this thread earlier, and wondering...abc, can you put a price on this "best new car"? I want to make suggestions, but you've already pointed out that so many cars that we think fit, are too expensive for the average UK family. So, what'll it be? 12K, 20K, more? That way we can at least have a constant in this debate, we will all be suggesting comparable cars to each other and not suggesting cars that are affordable for some, but not for others.

They don't sell the S3 here in the States that I'm aware of, only the A3 S-line. I will say this, the A3 has ZERO overhead space. I'm 5'4" and when I got in the back seat, I had maybe 2-3" of head space. The blind spots are pretty bad as well and it just didn't feel like an Audi. Felt like a Mazda. It's safe for me to assume that the S3, and even the A4 Avant would have similar downfalls. The A4 Avant is only 5K more than the S3, and is a wagon, which has benefits of it's own. My old roomie had a 2003 A4 and had massive problems w/ the bi-turbo and some other major components but that could be due to its age.

I saw a black IS-F yesterday and it exceeded my expectations. We looked at the IS-350's for me a few months ago and wanted to check out the IS-F but they didn't have any on the lot. The one I saw yesterday was a stealthy one. Black, black wheels and tinted windows and it had a mean stance and looked quite sharp.

Then again, I also spent my commute home today staring at the ass end of a 911 Turbo...my my what a beauty.

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pantstofry

Europe gets all of the cool cars, :/

i spent the ride home from school behind a sick dark purple gallardo

i woz like OMGWTFBBQ

I love that all-black look too, I saw an S4 like that the other day. sikh!

Voodoo

it was in spoiler tags a few posts up. It's a R32 tuned to the sum of AU$72k ontop of the stock price and laps slightly slower than a tuned Porche 911 turbo


God I love 911 Turbos. I would kill for one. Even though you look like a total wanker in a Porche.

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9INCHNAIL

Ok its not the fastest or most " showy" car on the planet, but i currently own a mazda6 and i really want the mps version.

Link is a 6 up against a scooby.

Mazda 6 MPS v Subaru Impreza WRX STI Spec D | Car Group Tests | Car Reviews | evo

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kll131

I'll admit i know nothing about cars at all. My family drives a Chrystler Stow n go, i don't know about the price value but the 'stow n go' part is awesome.

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